2023-24 NBA Season | Page 89 | Syracusefan.com

2023-24 NBA Season

Knicks411 said:
I feel pretty similar to you on Davis. I will say he was awesome during the title run (28/10 on 57/38/82) but it was the bubble and people just arent going to count it as much as a normal season, for better or worse.

And it definitely seems like at this point he is never going to take the next step up to like top level guy. He has made 4 first team all NBAs, which is more than I would've guessed, but none since 2020 and he's had one third place MVP finish and one 5th.

Thinking about Nash some more, I really cant believe he won back to back MVPs.
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I think that bubble chip won't be worth as much unless he wins more titles. For instance, Duncan won his first title in that super shortened '99 season, but then won four more and always won more than 50 games. So people will give him (and I think they should) the benefit of the doubt with that 1999 title.

I don't think Ant gets the benefit of the doubt for that title yet. I think he has to do more in his career for that title to mean more, if that makes sense.

Also, when you evaluate the best bigs from the 2010s onward, it's basically Embiid, Giannis, Jokic and AD. But I think most people would say that AD never really hit the heights of the other three.
 
MikeSU02 said:
I think that bubble chip won't be worth as much unless he wins more titles. For instance, Duncan won his first title in that super shortened '99 season, but then won four more and always won more than 50 games. So people will give him (and I think they should) the benefit of the doubt with that 1999 title.

I don't think Ant gets the benefit of the doubt for that title yet. I think he has to do more in his career for that title to mean more, if that makes sense.

Also, when you evaluate the best bigs from the 2010s onward, it's basically Embiid, Giannis, Jokic and AD. But I think most people would say that AD never really hit the heights of the other three.
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Yeah, and I'll add, Embiid actually sucks, so...
 
MikeSU02 said:
I think that bubble chip won't be worth as much unless he wins more titles. For instance, Duncan won his first title in that super shortened '99 season, but then won four more and always won more than 50 games. So people will give him (and I think they should) the benefit of the doubt with that 1999 title.

I don't think Ant gets the benefit of the doubt for that title yet. I think he has to do more in his career for that title to mean more, if that makes sense.

Also, when you evaluate the best bigs from the 2010s onward, it's basically Embiid, Giannis, Jokic and AD. But I think most people would say that AD never really hit the heights of the other three.
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Yeah I basically spent like 2013-2019 or whatever thinking AD was on the verge of becoming like a top 3, perennial mvp candidate type guy. It hasnt happened yet and I think we have to assume it never will
 
Knicks411 said:
Yeah I basically spent like 2013-2019 or whatever thinking AD was on the verge of becoming like a top 3, perennial mvp candidate type guy. It hasnt happened yet and I think we have to assume it never will
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The media hype machine on that was real.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
The media hype machine on that was real.
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Maybe but the guy was legit an awesome college player/prospect and he was a really good player in the league right away (all star by year 2, top 5 MVP in year 3; kinda seems like the Wemby path). Just seems like hes a little too reliant on others to help him create offense to reach the top level
 
Knicks411 said:
Maybe but the guy was legit an awesome college player/prospect and he was a really good player in the league right away (all star by year 2, top 5 MVP in year 3; kinda seems like the Wemby path). Just seems like hes a little too reliant on others to help him create offense to reach the top level
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Oh there were definitely some reasons to think he was on a trajectory to be a transcendent player. That's just not what he was, and the media treated him like he was before he fully made that leap.

I think his MVP voting was more hype than substance too FWIW.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
Oh there were definitely some reasons to think he was on a trajectory to be a transcendent player. That's just not what he was, and the media treated him like he was before he fully made that leap.

I think his MVP voting was more hype than substance too FWIW.
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Maybe? I'm just going back and looking at it, he was 24-10 with 3 blocks a game and the team went from 34 wins the year before to 45 and his on/off was +11.3, so he was driving things for them.

www.basketball-reference.com

2014-15 NBA Awards Voting | Basketball-Reference.com

2014-15 NBA Awards Voting Summary
www.basketball-reference.com www.basketball-reference.com

You look at the voting here, does he really look out of place? LaMarcus Aldridge should be ahead of him? Chris Paul? (Maybe?) I dont think Kawhi was quite Kawhi yet, etc.

Taking a look at this, I dont know if its recency bias or what, but it sure seems like the league is deeper with elite players now than even a decade ago. I was looking at this yesterday for this discussion and AD made first team all NBA in this season and the F on the second team were Pau Gasol and Aldridge, with Demarcus Cousins at C.
 
Knicks411 said:
Taking a look at this, I dont know if its recency bias or what, but it sure seems like the league is deeper with elite players now than even a decade ago.
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That's absolutely a bias factoring into my thinking and is why I think Davis and some of that second tier in that generation of the NBA will get forgotten. I mean Giannis just had a season where for the first time ever in the NBA he averaged 30 points on 60% shooting, and he wasn't a finalist for MVP and by voting was squarely 4th. 4th!

Davis' best season isn't better than the year Giannis had this year.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
That's absolutely a bias factoring into my thinking and is why I think Davis and some of that second tier in that generation of the NBA will get forgotten. I mean Giannis just had a season where for the first time ever in the NBA he averaged 30 points on 60% shooting, and he wasn't a finalist for MVP and by voting was squarely 4th. 4th!

Davis' best season isn't better than the year Giannis had this year.
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Yeah I dont know how much of that is just the way the game is played now its easier to put up offensive stats (minus the second half of this season when the league decided to let more contact go) or what but it does seem to warp things.

Just for some context, in the 2015 season that I was discussing, the league averaged 105.6 points per 100 possessions. It was 115.3 this year! The effective FG% was 49.6% in 2015, its 54.7% now! That can't all be because the players are better now (though I do think some of it surely is)

But I do agree that guys from the prior generation will be forgotten/thought of less. As time goes on players from the past are more and more remembered by their stats more than anything, and if this pattern holds, the stats from the last 4-5 years are just going to look so much better than even the stats from the middle of the teens, let alone going further back.
 
Knicks411 said:
Yeah I dont know how much of that is just the way the game is played now its easier to put up offensive stats (minus the second half of this season when the league decided to let more contact go) or what but it does seem to warp things.

Just for some context, in the 2015 season that I was discussing, the league averaged 105.6 points per 100 possessions. It was 115.3 this year! The effective FG% was 49.6% in 2015, its 54.7% now! That can't all be because the players are better now (though I do think some of it surely is)

But I do agree that guys from the prior generation will be forgotten/thought of less. As time goes on players from the past are more and more remembered by their stats more than anything, and if this pattern holds, the stats from the last 4-5 years are just going to look so much better than even the stats from the middle of the teens, let alone going further back.
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Yeah, which I was exactly I don't think a guy like Davis or Harden gets ahead of that batch mentioned earlier (Malone, Barkley, Stockton, etc.). Those guys have their legacies cemented, and that provides some immunity over changes in numbers.

It's kind of like Oscar Robertson. He's always going to be recognized as one of the greatest, even though fewer and fewer basketball fans ever saw him play. His legacy and accomplishments are assured though and there's no question of his place in the pantheon of great players. Am I bumping Oscar Robertson for James Harden? Nah.
 
I also think the further away you get from a players career, like I said the stats matter more, and the narrative matters less. Because at the time, the legacies of guys like Barkley and Malone is that they werent good enough to win a title. Malone winning the MVP over Jordan was mocked at the time (Barkely over MJ as well I think, but to a lesser extent, correct me if I'm wrong) but now it's "2 time MVP Karl Malone" and he's an all time great and he's unassailable whereas if you tried to make that argument during his era I am not sure the success you would have. Ditto Barkley, he is famously a guy who never won a title but he had really great numbers (and was a great player) and is a beloved tv presence so you dont hear as much about that now (unless you listen to Kenny and Chuck of course). The further away you get from the career the less you remember any of the failures

I'm making more of a general than a specific point here, because to me Malone and Barkley are better players than Davis. But in 20 years Anthony Davis is going to be a guy with 4-5 first team all NBAs, 10-12 AS teams, a title, and you're going to look at whoever the current day version of Anthony Davis is and think "i'm supposed to think this guy is better than Anthony Davis??"

Edit: Also Oscar Robertson's legacy for most of his career was that he was a guy who put up great stats who didnt win anything. So nothing like James Harden
 
Knicks411 said:
I also think the further away you get from a players career, like I said the stats matter more, and the narrative matters less. Because at the time, the legacies of guys like Barkley and Malone is that they werent good enough to win a title. Malone winning the MVP over Jordan was mocked at the time (Barkely over MJ as well I think, but to a lesser extent, correct me if I'm wrong) but now it's "2 time MVP Karl Malone" and he's an all time great and he's unassailable whereas if you tried to make that argument during his era I am not sure the success you would have. Ditto Barkley, he is famously a guy who never won a title but he had really great numbers (and was a great player) and is a beloved tv presence so you dont hear as much about that now (unless you listen to Kenny and Chuck of course). The further away you get from the career the less you remember any of the failures

I'm making more of a general than a specific point here, because to me Malone and Barkley are better players than Davis. But in 20 years Anthony Davis is going to be a guy with 4-5 first team all NBAs, 10-12 AS teams, a title, and you're going to look at whoever the current day version of Anthony Davis is and think "i'm supposed to think this guy is better than Anthony Davis??"
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Without Lebron I’d say AD falls somewhere in between Dominique Wilkins and Patrick Ewing. Ewing is probably better. He got a team to the finals on his own as the best player. Niques teams did nothing of significance.
 
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I also have to say in thinking about this just a little more, I do think considering the era we're in where there is so much focus on everything, I do think there will be less of a halo effect on more modern players when they get older.

Also worth pointing out on AD; he just turned 31, he can still add to his story. Ewing was older than AD is now when he took the Knicks to the finals.
 
MikeSU02 said:
I wish the Clippers just had a healthy Kawhi. It's really too bad. Very glad Balmer has gone all in on the new stadium and the fan experience.
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They knew what they were getting when they signed that mercurial (at best) sociopath (at worst) dude as the centerpiece of the team.
 
Comical listening to Breen overplay his effort to sound impartial. His calls on Knick baskets and good plays are so deadpan and low-key.
 
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